Many thanks for the brand new quote which i had not seen ahead of
I am not sure should you have the means to access Douglas Richardson’s Plantagnet Origins or not, because it is actually created since a reference to possess Us americans that have colonial ancestors from Plantagenet lineage. The guy gets among their proofs one to Joanna try the latest mother off Gwladus Ddu the truth that Llewelyn gave the newest properties regarding Knighton and you will Norton castles during the Shropshire so you’re able to Ralph Mortimer when he and you may Gwladus was hitched. It would was indeed illegal to possess Llewelyn provide Joanna’s possessions in order to an illegitimate child (otherwise individual who wasn’t a child away from Joanna). Brand new qualities away from Norton and you will Knighton remained from the Mortimer relatives thereafter. The brand new quote are, “When the brand new Queen give Property so you’re able to a man that have a great lady out-of his kindred in the honest relationship, in addition to lady dyeth in place of issue, the guy regarding the Kings circumstances will not hold on a minute getting his life, just like the lady caused the the fresh new provide.” This means that, the latest services could have reverted returning to new crown before it would-have-been supplied to a baby who was perhaps not Joanna’s.
Hi, Marilyn, I did not get access to the fresh new Plantaganet Origins because of the Doug Richardson, however, did have access to many talks associated with your and his ideas along with other genealogists (particular to have him, but many and facing). I believe, once i stated in my personal earlier papers, you to exactly what shifts they for me personally(Joanna being the mother away from Gwladus), ‘s the transfer of your attributes your discuss to help you Ralph de Mortimer on their ed a couple of its students ‘John’ and you can ‘Joan.’ I can not imagine that if the Gwladus had been the newest ded their college students thus. Regardless of the arguments between the eminent genealogists I talk about over, there clearly was an over-all opinion that Gwladus Ddu can be relatively identified as the fresh new child off Llywelyn ab Iorwerth of the Joanna, find attractive south african women daughter (after that legitimised) of John, King out of The united kingdomt. I would ike to simply take this possible opportunity to trust Sharon (into the a contact if you ask me) you to Llywelyn’s daughter Gwenllian try from the Tangwystyl and never Joanna, and therefore being blood brother so you can Gruffudd. I foot so it partially for the a modern listing utilized in ‘Royal or any other Historic characters Illustrative of your rule off Henry 111,’ edited by Rev. Walter W. Shirley, vol step 1. To your profiles 500-503 is the transcript away from a unique page dated Marshall, Earl out-of Pembroke, to help you Queen Henry 111. In this page, Marshall covers their siege of one’s castles regarding Crum, Kilmore and you will O’Realy. He lists the individuals the guy found in the castle O’Realy whenever it surrendered, they incorporated: “…uxor Wilelmi de- Lascy, filia Leulini, soror Griffini de- patre ainsi que matre, et uxor Thomae Blund fratis dicti Willelmi, mais aussi mater dictorum Willelmi et Thomae ….” I am informed that means that i’ve here Gwenllian, daughter out of Prince llywelyn, whom is apparently titled ‘aunt regarding Gruffudd.’ As we know Gruffudd to get new illegitimate son from Llywelyn, it is pulled you to definitely ‘de patre ainsi que matre’ ensures that Gwenllian and you will Gruffudd had been complete blood sister and you may cousin. Had Gwenllian become Joanna’s child hence Queen Henry’s relative, absolutely Marshall would have stated thereon facts? So it failure from de Lacy’s partner because king’s relative, is actually drawn as near particular facts one Gwenllian wasn’t new daughter of your own king’s sister Joanna.
This type of attributes was indeed element of Joanna’s maritagium from their dad Queen John
Ken: Thanks for one to mention of the Gwenllian. I am certainly not a specialist genealogist, however, I actually do a number of search by myself traces. I do believe a few of the “pros” are really envious and you can angry of any most other (about obviously ways in certain of the things they blog post). Discover points that the audience is simply not going to understand with confidence in the members of the fresh MA because they did not continue vital records such i manage now, so genealogists and you will historians need to use their very best judgment during the sorting something out. Actually, vital records are a fairly “new” layout – of many says here in the united states failed to keep ideas out of births and you will deaths up until the early 1900’s. I belong to several descent communities in which I have had so you’re able to establish 11 otherwise a dozen years, and you may believe me it is hard. And so i most see the situation of contrasting MA forefathers. (And also the sad question is the fact that details available to the MA are of royalty and nobility – absolutely nothing anyway towards the well-known anyone).